The Paper Mario conundrum

[Kahhhhyle]

So Joker and I spoke about this near the games release about the direction of recent Paper Mario compared to the past. I said even though the fans have more than likely abandoned the series Origami King would probably sell the best in the series because of the Switch factor. Well that appears to be incorrect. Between the last two sales dates it sold an additional 70k units. Not super high compared to Nintendo other games and it would appear at this point it won't be reaching peak sales which were with Super Paper Mario on Wii... Not accounting for a Nintendo select or something.

So now the question is has the old fan base abandoned the series and would it have outsold SPM if they didn't. If they'd returned to roots? I actually think it might have now. The old fan base by itself would have certainly been less sales, but I think the new people they're targeting would try it either way. I also think it says volumes that they almost tried to make us think it would be more of a traditional RPG with fun characters in the trailer when they announced it. Almost like they are trying to cover up what we were getting.

Also last time we discussed this Joker mentioned Bug Fables, a game that was inspired by retro Paper Mario. Well if you've been waiting for physical Limited Run Games is currently doing their run of it. I got my copy.

[wu_wei_lion]

So Joker and I spoke about this near the games release about the direction of recent Paper Mario compared to the past. I said even though the fans have more than likely abandoned the series Origami King would probably sell the best in the series because of the Switch factor. Well that appears to be incorrect. Between the last two sales dates it sold an additional 70k units. Not super high compared to Nintendo other games and it would appear at this point it won't be reaching peak sales which were with Super Paper Mario on Wii... Not accounting for a Nintendo select or something.

So now the question is has the old fan base abandoned the series and would it have outsold SPM if they didn't. If they'd returned to roots? I actually think it might have now. The old fan base by itself would have certainly been less sales, but I think the new people they're targeting would try it either way. I also think it says volumes that they almost tried to make us think it would be more of a traditional RPG with fun characters in the trailer when they announced it. Almost like they are trying to cover up what we were getting.

Also last time we discussed this Joker mentioned Bug Fables, a game that was inspired by retro Paper Mario. Well if you've been waiting for physical Limited Run Games is currently doing their run of it. I got my copy.

I played The Origami King and thought it was really good. It honestly doesn't deserve the hate it gets. It's one of the few games that has held my attention from start to finish lately.

[Delicious Malk]

The origami king is so full of personality man. There is so much more to paper mario than the rpg elements people miss - and origami king has all those classic elements of the series. We enjoyed the game quite a bit in my household. I have, of course, been playing the series since the 64

[Kahhhhyle]

The discussion isn't necessarily if it's a bad game or not, it's moreso shouldn't the game be performing better on the Switch? Would it do better if it went back to the series roots and they made a more traditional RPG?

Also I notice you both say the game has the classic Paper Mario charm, which I've seen others sat as well? But what do you think of the combat and boss battles? Better? Worse? The same?

[Delicious Malk]

The discussion isn't necessarily if it's a bad game or not, it's moreso shouldn't the game be performing better on the Switch? Would it do better if it went back to the series roots and they made a more traditional RPG?

Also I notice you both say the game has the classic Paper Mario charm, which I've seen others sat as well? But what do you think of the combat and boss battles? Better? Worse? The same?

I don’t think the game would do better if it went to traditional RPG. Honestly I think it might do worse haha but that might be because I feel like I rarely see super successful RPGs anymore like we did during the PS2/GameCube era

Boss battles are great in origami king imo. Combat is passable, but I didn’t think the old paper Mario combat system was amazing either

[Kahhhhyle]

I don’t think the game would do better if it went to traditional RPG. Honestly I think it might do worse haha but that might be because I feel like I rarely see super successful RPGs anymore like we did during the PS2/GameCube era

Boss battles are great in origami king imo. Combat is passable, but I didn’t think the old paper Mario combat system was amazing either

Fire Emblem Three Houses has sold a lil over 3 million copies. Within about 100k of Paper Mario. Xenoblade Chronicles 2 has sold over 2 million and Definitive Edition has sold 1.5 million. Neither of these are traditional RPG's, but it's just to illustrate how well RPG's are doing on Switch.

Paper Mario should be far eclipsing these series with Mario being in the name alone, but it isn't. The Switch audience should be more receptive to a Paper Mario game then the Wii audience but here we are.

I can't speak for the gameplay because I haven't playing TOK obviously, but do you like it more then the action command system?

[Delicious Malk]

I don’t think the game would do better if it went to traditional RPG. Honestly I think it might do worse haha but that might be because I feel like I rarely see super successful RPGs anymore like we did during the PS2/GameCube era

Boss battles are great in origami king imo. Combat is passable, but I didn’t think the old paper Mario combat system was amazing either

Fire Emblem Three Houses has sold a lil over 3 million copies. Within about 100k of Paper Mario. Xenoblade Chronicles 2 has sold over 2 million and Definitive Edition has sold 1.5 million. Neither of these are traditional RPG's, but it's just to illustrate how well RPG's are doing on Switch.

Paper Mario should be far eclipsing these series with Mario being in the name alone, but it isn't. The Switch audience should be more receptive to a Paper Mario game then the Wii audience but here we are.

I can't speak for the gameplay because I haven't playing TOK obviously, but do you like it more then the action command system?

Yeah, I think I did like it more than the action command system.

I've played through every Fire Emblem ever made and I don't think they run the same race with RPGs. Fire Emblem is, at its' core, a tactics game with some RPG elements. Not really RPG as a primary category. So I don't compare there. It's also gotten especially popular since Fire Emblem Heroes mobile game got huge, so there's a lot of factors at play there. Waifus sell copies. Anyway, not apples to apples

Xenoblade Chronicles X is probably a better comparison, but even then, I dunno that I'd argue Paper Mario should be "far eclipsing" it, waifu jrpgs vs paper mario seems like they're selling to different categories to me

If Paper Mario went back to the straight RPG style it probably would appeal to that JRPG audience again, who seem to me as the primary whiners, but as we know from the numbers, they're not huge. Paper Mario TTYD was 13th on the sales charts for gamecube lifetime, arguably pretty low on the list for a mario game on a console that wasn't known for having a large quantity of quality games(instead, it had extremely high quality games but low quantity of those). Paper Mario TOK is like 22nd or something right now, we've yet to see lifetime for it, on a console known for having a lot of quality titles. It has sold 2x what TTYD did and despite being farther down the list, the market is certainly different now and I'd argue TOK had tougher competition at the time (though to be fair if i had to pick one to play right now, I'd probably pick TTYD)

I'm just not convinced bringing back the combat system, which was ok at best in TTYD, would make it sell that much more than it's doing.

[Nicholas]

Everyone: Turn-based RPG pls

Nintendo: No, but you can have the turn based part...AT A COST!!!

Everyone: Wut is even this battle mechanic?

Nintendo: Take it or leave it

Everyone: Can we at least get a deep story? And populations that aren't just Toads, Goombas, and Koopas?

Nintendo: Did you forget this was a Mario game?

Everyone: But the old Paper M-

Nintendo: What "old Paper Mario"?

Bug Fables: SUP GUYS!!!!!

[Kahhhhyle]

Yeah, I think I did like it more than the action command system.

I've played through every Fire Emblem ever made and I don't think they run the same race with RPGs. Fire Emblem is, at its' core, a tactics game with some RPG elements. Not really RPG as a primary category. So I don't compare there. It's also gotten especially popular since Fire Emblem Heroes mobile game got huge, so there's a lot of factors at play there. Waifus sell copies. Anyway, not apples to apples

Xenoblade Chronicles X is probably a better comparison, but even then, I dunno that I'd argue Paper Mario should be "far eclipsing" it, waifu jrpgs vs paper mario seems like they're selling to different categories to me

If Paper Mario went back to the straight RPG style it probably would appeal to that JRPG audience again, who seem to me as the primary whiners, but as we know from the numbers, they're not huge. Paper Mario TTYD was 13th on the sales charts for gamecube lifetime, arguably pretty low on the list for a mario game on a console that wasn't known for having a large quantity of quality games(instead, it had extremely high quality games but low quantity of those). Paper Mario TOK is like 22nd or something right now, we've yet to see lifetime for it, on a console known for having a lot of quality titles. It has sold 2x what TTYD did and despite being farther down the list, the market is certainly different now and I'd argue TOK had tougher competition at the time (though to be fair if i had to pick one to play right now, I'd probably pick TTYD)

I'm just not convinced bringing back the combat system, which was ok at best in TTYD, would make it sell that much more than it's doing.

Ya know I had a line where I was gonna say it's a tactical RPG in my original post, but I deleted it lol. I dunno if Heroes is doing much after the Valentia remake couldn't even crack a million. Xenoblade is pretty different too and shouldn't really be compared to Paper Mario either... The overall point is just that games that traditionally didn't really do that well are doing much much better on the Switch. These are hawdcawr titles that were always going to be limited in how successful they could be on Wii or 3DS (and we all know any game on Wii U didn't have much of a chance), but on Switch they're setting record sales for their respective series. Xenoblade hadn't cracked a million before Switch, Fire Emblem was essentially dead until Awakening, but Three Houses just became the best selling entry late last year*. Quite a few series that hit Switch have seen record sales for it. When a series doesn't see growth on Switch I think there's reason to question why.

I would stick to my guns that Paper Mario should be burying these other games. Look at any other game with Mario in the title on Switch. Mario plus Rabbids cleared 2 million. One of the XCOM devs said he feels that game could reinvigorate that entire genre! And tactics cover shooters are a much harder sell then a turned base RPG. Or some weird ring thing combat system

TTYD had a much smaller install base. When TTYD released there were 18 million Gamecube's, when TOK released there were 64 million Switch's. It's easy to say well then TOK should sell 3.5 times more, but we both know that's dumb. But right now it's sold about 1.5x as much, and considering they only sold 70k during this holiday it prolly won't be reaching 3.8 million to sell 2x, again barring a Nintendo select in a year or something. And I feel a large part of that is because they aren't appealing to those people who bought TTYD, SPM, and then got burned by Sticker Star and never came back. I'm willing to bet the majority of the people who bought TOK would have still bought it if it were turned based, plus the older fans of the series, and would have brought in the new RPG gamers that are getting comfy on Switch. It also had the second lowest debut in Japan (Color Splash on Wii U is the first so that barely counts), a more traditional RPG would have more then likely done much better in Japan as well.

*Side note. I'm playing Three Houses right now and I'm having fun, but I'm also more nervous then I've ever been for a game like this because I feel like at some point these kids are gonna get pitted against each other and I don't want that...

Bug Fables: SUP GUYS!!!!!

Looking forward to this. I think you posted the trailer after we talked about this and I was like Oh I'm in lol

[Freak]

Bought it and loved it.
Sure, it wasn't 1000 year door but I knew that and didn't expect it to be.
The fighting mechanic is actually pretty good if you get your head in the right zone.
It had a massive amount of personality and that makes a difference.
One of the better releases from Nintendo on Switch and the best part is it wasn't on Wii U