The Paper Mario conundrum

[Delicious Malk]

Bought it and loved it.
Sure, it wasn't 1000 year door but I knew that and didn't expect it to be.
The fighting mechanic is actually pretty good if you get your head in the right zone.
It had a massive amount of personality and that makes a difference.
One of the better releases from Nintendo on Switch and the best part is it wasn't on Wii U

Agreed 100%

TTYD had a much smaller install base. When TTYD released there were 18 million Gamecube's, when TOK released there were 64 million Switch's. It's easy to say well then TOK should sell 3.5 times more, but we both know that's dumb. But right now it's sold about 1.5x as much, and considering they only sold 70k during this holiday it prolly won't be reaching 3.8 million to sell 2x, again barring a Nintendo select in a year or something. And I feel a large part of that is because they aren't appealing to those people who bought TTYD, SPM, and then got burned by Sticker Star and never came back. I'm willing to bet the majority of the people who bought TOK would have still bought it if it were turned based, plus the older fans of the series, and would have brought in the new RPG gamers that are getting comfy on Switch. It also had the second lowest debut in Japan (Color Splash on Wii U is the first so that barely counts), a more traditional RPG would have more then likely done much better in Japan as well.

Isn't that most of the "switch boon", the higher install base? When games do well on Switch there's always a lot of factors involved, many of which include marketing unfortunately, but I personally attribute most series' record sales numbers to the significantly higher install base than previous entries. Still seems to be the case in this situation, though admittedly I think the series lost a lot of "mind share" with hardcore gamers after Sticker Star.

But a lot of these are interesting to analyze. Animal Crossing, I think, would have gotten a pretty decent boost just releasing on Switch, but releasing in March when everyone went into lockdown, consuming the reddit front page for a while... Man, that was massive for the series

[Nicholas]

I just don't understand why Nintendo would intentionally make Paper Mario games that people didn't ask for instead of making the PM games people do ask for.

That is like me being a chef and everyone loves my brisket sandwich but then I take it off the menu and give them spaghetti.

[Freak]

I just don't understand why Nintendo would intentionally make Paper Mario games that people didn't ask for instead of making the PM games people do ask for.

That is like me being a chef and everyone loves my brisket sandwich but then I take it off the menu and give them spaghetti.

Nintendo don't listen to their fanbase.
They think they know best.
As a F Zero fan we are used to asking Nintendo for ANYTHING and receiving nothing

[Nicholas]

I just don't understand why Nintendo would intentionally make Paper Mario games that people didn't ask for instead of making the PM games people do ask for.

That is like me being a chef and everyone loves my brisket sandwich but then I take it off the menu and give them spaghetti.

Nintendo don't listen to their fanbase.
They think they know best.
As a F Zero fan we are used to asking Nintendo for ANYTHING and receiving nothing

And keep in mind they still didn't bring Mother 3 to the west despite the fan translators saying Nintendo could officially use their translation.

That's the easiest money I've ever seen just sitting on the table.

[WoodenSaucer]

I just don't understand why Nintendo would intentionally make Paper Mario games that people didn't ask for instead of making the PM games people do ask for.

That is like me being a chef and everyone loves my brisket sandwich but then I take it off the menu and give them spaghetti.

Nintendo don't listen to their fanbase.
They think they know best.
As a F Zero fan we are used to asking Nintendo for ANYTHING and receiving nothing

Exactly what I was going to say. The community asks Nintendo for a lot of things, and they don't give us any of them. They just do whatever they want, and whatever they want is usually different than what the fans want. They definitely can't be accused of doing any fan service.

[Kahhhhyle]

Isn't that most of the "switch boon", the higher install base? When games do well on Switch there's always a lot of factors involved, many of which include marketing unfortunately, but I personally attribute most series' record sales numbers to the significantly higher install base than previous entries. Still seems to be the case in this situation, though admittedly I think the series lost a lot of "mind share" with hardcore gamers after Sticker Star.

But a lot of these are interesting to analyze. Animal Crossing, I think, would have gotten a pretty decent boost just releasing on Switch, but releasing in March when everyone went into lockdown, consuming the reddit front page for a while... Man, that was massive for the series

It has a lot to do with it to be sure, but it also has to do with the audience that is buying games on Switch. Compare the sales of the franchises on Wii to Switch, if it were just a matter of install base Ring Fit would be the best selling game on the system. Instead the "hardcore" series are doing the heavy lifting here and while Ring Fit, Club House games, and Mario Kart Live are all doing well, it's clear where the money is to be made on Switch. And I think the audience buying games on Switch would be much more receptive in general to an RPG-esque Paper Mario then an Origami King one.

Covid was the best thing that could have happened to Animal Crossing lol. It still would have done well even if we could go outside, but no AS well... That said all entertainment was on the uptick last year. Paper Mario in theory got a boost from that as well, who's to say how well it would have done if people could have gone to the beach when it came out.

I just don't understand why Nintendo would intentionally make Paper Mario games that people didn't ask for instead of making the PM games people do ask for.

That is like me being a chef and everyone loves my brisket sandwich but then I take it off the menu and give them spaghetti.

I kinda get the wanting to do something new schtick, but it's been a long time... Maybe you don't want vanilla ice cream every time, but sometimes it's nice...

My god that was a drew level of analogy right there

And keep in mind they still didn't bring Mother 3 to the west despite the fan translators saying Nintendo could officially use their translation.

That's the easiest money I've ever seen just sitting on the table.

ALLEGEDLY there's some stuff in Mother 3 that wouldn't look to good in the current hyper sensitive social climate...

I dunno how true that is and I feel if it were true they could slap a bumper at the beginning saying we made this 30 years ago we don't think this way anymore, but what do I know.

Exactly what I was going to say. The community asks Nintendo for a lot of things, and they don't give us any of them. They just do whatever they want, and whatever they want is usually different than what the fans want. They definitely can't be accused of doing any fan service.

Sometimes they do. Think about how much people wanted K Rool or Ridley in Smash. Or rereleasing Gamecube controllers because the competitive community won't want to play with anything else. It's few and far between, but it does happen.

[Delicious Malk]

Isn't that most of the "switch boon", the higher install base? When games do well on Switch there's always a lot of factors involved, many of which include marketing unfortunately, but I personally attribute most series' record sales numbers to the significantly higher install base than previous entries. Still seems to be the case in this situation, though admittedly I think the series lost a lot of "mind share" with hardcore gamers after Sticker Star.

But a lot of these are interesting to analyze. Animal Crossing, I think, would have gotten a pretty decent boost just releasing on Switch, but releasing in March when everyone went into lockdown, consuming the reddit front page for a while... Man, that was massive for the series

It has a lot to do with it to be sure, but it also has to do with the audience that is buying games on Switch. Compare the sales of the franchises on Wii to Switch, if it were just a matter of install base Ring Fit would be the best selling game on the system. Instead the "hardcore" series are doing the heavy lifting here and while Ring Fit, Club House games, and Mario Kart Live are all doing well, it's clear where the money is to be made on Switch. And I think the audience buying games on Switch would be much more receptive in general to an RPG-esque Paper Mario then an Origami King one.

Covid was the best thing that could have happened to Animal Crossing lol. It still would have done well even if we could go outside, but no AS well... That said all entertainment was on the uptick last year. Paper Mario in theory got a boost from that as well, who's to say how well it would have done if people could have gone to the beach when it came out.

Is Ring Fit in the Wii Sports franchise? I never really thought about it like that, it's certainly not marketed like that, but it'd make sense to me if it were. In any case, I disagree that the "hardcore" series are doing the heavy lifting here, but that may be because we define "hardcore" series a little differently. While video games as fitness may have been a fad the Wii struck gold on, the Switch is still carried by games for casuals. Mario Kart, Animal Crossing, Mario Odyssey, Super Smash Bros, Pokemon Let's Go, Pokemon Sword and Shield, Super Mario Party, and Super Mario Bros U Deluxe are all games marketed towards casuals and kids, so they essentially ignore the opinions of the hardcore. While some people treat these games "hardcore", they are not hardcore. In Pokemon Sword and Shield's case they even actively pissed off the Pokemon community but sold bucketloads regardless. Because they do user testing with kids and the average person instead of the too-intense, needs RPG elements back in Paper Mario kind of people.

Pandering to the vocal minority has never been Nintendo's schtick, and I personally think that's wise on the whole. Maybe in the next version of Paper Mario they add the boring TTYD combat back in and it sells bucketloads, but when/if they do it, it'll probably be because they tested it on normal people and they liked it. That's the switch's audience still, from what I can tell. Not the hardcore, but they hit that great blend again of being casual friendly while not being too uncool for the hardcore

[Death]

I didn't buy the Origami King and have no intention to do so until it's under $30. It's the same approach I took with Color Splash on Wii U where I waited until stores were clearing their remaining Wii U software and ended up getting it for $27 (and I could've gotten it for $15 had I waited another 2 weeks since a different store cleared it for that price). I didn't like Super Paper Mario and Paper Mario: Sticker Star grew really stale within an hour or so to the point that I never finished either game (and I haven't played Color Splash yet either), so I'm really not interested in a new one until it returns to something much closer to the N64 original and the Thousand-Year Door.

And now that AlphaDream is dead, hopefully Paper Mario can go back to being a turn-based RPG since there's no excuse of the Mario & Luigi games already filling that genre.

It has a lot to do with it to be sure, but it also has to do with the audience that is buying games on Switch. Compare the sales of the franchises on Wii to Switch, if it were just a matter of install base Ring Fit would be the best selling game on the system. Instead the "hardcore" series are doing the heavy lifting here and while Ring Fit, Club House games, and Mario Kart Live are all doing well, it's clear where the money is to be made on Switch. And I think the audience buying games on Switch would be much more receptive in general to an RPG-esque Paper Mario then an Origami King one.

Covid was the best thing that could have happened to Animal Crossing lol. It still would have done well even if we could go outside, but no AS well... That said all entertainment was on the uptick last year. Paper Mario in theory got a boost from that as well, who's to say how well it would have done if people could have gone to the beach when it came out.

This. If it was solely about the size of the install base then Wii should have the best-selling home console releases in every single franchise, but it doesn't. Switch has most of them including 3D Mario, Animal Crossing, Fire Emblem, Kirby, The Legend of Zelda, Mario Party, Pokemon, Super Smash Bros. and Xenoblade Chronicles. Mario Kart is very close to having its best-selling entry on Switch too with it only being ~2 million units behind and still selling over 1.5 million per quarter.

It's really only 2D Mario and the more casual-oriented games (think Wii Sports, Wii Play and Wii Fit) that still have their best-selling entries on Wii, though some of them are also no slouch on Switch (but still need to double (Ring Fit) or triple (New Super Mario Bros. U Deluxe) their sales to outsell their most comparable counterparts on Wii).

Though Paper Mario is also one of the few that hasn't sold better on Switch despite most other franchises managing to do so. Super Paper Mario on Wii is the best-selling entry with over 4.2 million sold and I'm doubtful the Origami King is going to get anywhere close since it's ~1.1 million behind and only sold 230k in its second quarter (which was holiday 2020) and 70k in its third quarter. You could chalk that up to Super Paper Mario being the first major Mario game on Wii, but then you'd be arguing against install base anyway because it released just ~5 months after the Wii did.

[WoodenSaucer]

Is Ring Fit in the Wii Sports franchise? I never really thought about it like that, it's certainly not marketed like that, but it'd make sense to me if it were.

I think Ring Fit was obviously the successor to Wii Fit. But Wii Fit had a lot in common with Wii Sports Resort, so I think they were intended to at least be in the same universe. I know some of Wii Fit took place on the same island. I'm not sure how Ring Fit fits in, though.

[Kahhhhyle]

Is Ring Fit in the Wii Sports franchise? I never really thought about it like that, it's certainly not marketed like that, but it'd make sense to me if it were. In any case, I disagree that the "hardcore" series are doing the heavy lifting here, but that may be because we define "hardcore" series a little differently. While video games as fitness may have been a fad the Wii struck gold on, the Switch is still carried by games for casuals. Mario Kart, Animal Crossing, Mario Odyssey, Super Smash Bros, Pokemon Let's Go, Pokemon Sword and Shield, Super Mario Party, and Super Mario Bros U Deluxe are all games marketed towards casuals and kids, so they essentially ignore the opinions of the hardcore. While some people treat these games "hardcore", they are not hardcore. In Pokemon Sword and Shield's case they even actively pissed off the Pokemon community but sold bucketloads regardless. Because they do user testing with kids and the average person instead of the too-intense, needs RPG elements back in Paper Mario kind of people.

Pandering to the vocal minority has never been Nintendo's schtick, and I personally think that's wise on the whole. Maybe in the next version of Paper Mario they add the boring TTYD combat back in and it sells bucketloads, but when/if they do it, it'll probably be because they tested it on normal people and they liked it. That's the switch's audience still, from what I can tell. Not the hardcore, but they hit that great blend again of being casual friendly while not being too uncool for the hardcore

Ring Fit is definitely more of it's own thing. The only connection it really has is the fitness angle. But Ring Fit is (ironically considering what we're talking about) a turn based RPG where your exercise affects how much damage your attacks do in battle, compared to Wii Fit which was basically a mini game collection.

Yeah I guess our classifications of those games is just different. Pokemon kind of exists in it's own universe so I don't really wanna classify that as casual or hardcore. But I wouldn't call Mario Kart, Smash, or Animal Crossing casual even though casuals definitely do buy and play it to... Guess appealing to everything is actually the best option lol.

I think Ring Fit was obviously the successor to Wii Fit. But Wii Fit had a lot in common with Wii Sports Resort, so I think they were intended to at least be in the same universe. I know some of Wii Fit took place on the same island. I'm not sure how Ring Fit fits in, though.

Your right about all the Wii games seemingly being in the same "universe" is probably right... For whatever lore there is for those games. Lol. Ring Fit is its own thing though